Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

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Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 24.11.2019 - 16:45 · #1

Hello alobby administrators,

I'd like know your opinion on the matter below and I believe as a longstanding member of the community I have a right to know why this community needs such an administrator as Hirtenknogger?

Hirtenknogger has continuously and multiple times abused and offended me by pretty much every time greeting me with 'fuck you', 'shut up', 'bot' etc. on team speak whenever I would log in and join a channel where he was. Moreover, often he went on to say bad things about me in German to other players (thinking I don't understand, as I don't speak German). Moreover, today he said that this behaviour "didn't matter" - is that how an alobby admin is expected to behave and project attitude? I haven't been reporting this for a while, but given his continued insults today (desribed below) I decided to share this.

I would also like to highlight that he is the only admin that is constantly trying to exhibit and excercise his “power”. One example of that is banning Kanjie on team speak after Kanjie said, if I remember correctly, 'fuck you' to someone - Hirtenknogger does that often himself, so that is clearly double standards? Should he get banned from Team speak?

Moreover, he is constantly trying to exercise and project his power by giving 'last notice' or 'last warnings' to players, often in front of other players - this doesn’t help resolve conflicts. It is always better to speak to a player in a one to one setting, rather than escalate things in public. Also, would be great to clarify what the basis of these last warning is? Is that random self judgement?

Finally a separate point that occurred today - hirtenknoger has called me a quitter and have broken up a full open random to create a new random which he called 'no quitters' to personally insult me with an intention to kick me from the game so that I can't play. He also gave me 'last warning' - which is another example of a toxic behaviour and abuse of his admin rights. Again, his 'warnings' don't follow any guidelines, they are just self made. Now, I'd like to clarify the point about quitting - I did indeed quit two games in one day before the official game end a few days ago, see below my thoughts on this:
- I did quit two games in one day before the official end of game - quitting is not good and I agree this is not a correct behaviour and noone should be quitting, including myself (which I generally don't - bad days happen)
- However, in both instances my quitting didn't not have ANY impact on the game process or outcome - in the first game I was dead, in the second game I was the only alive player after the whole team crushed. In both cases games finished and league score were recorded.
- I had my reasons to quit, notably in one game there was unfair play after an unlucky save where a player crushed a tower which he lost before the save, changing the game outcome completely.
- One quit can be very different from another quit. my quits had zero impact on the game. Again, quitting is not good generally.

I am long standing player, who plays and hosts a lot of games - I see people quitting left and right, but I don't see Hirtenknogger or any other admin threating or giving them last notices. It is highly likely that Hirtenknogger has a personal hate towards me and potentially some other players and tries to insult me at any convenient and suitable point in time.

I firmly believe that such administarors are not developing the community and such behaviour is detrimental to this community. I don’t see what value he adds to the community as an administrator.

Thanks,
osp

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 24.11.2019 - 18:29 · #2

Stopped reading after "Hello alobby administrators,"

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 25.11.2019 - 00:45 · #3

Mrblue, it's your choice. I'd like to know admins point of view and get clarity from them whether this kind of behaviour is tolerated and expected from their peer, but not start a general debate in alobby community. That is why I am addressing them.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 25.11.2019 - 18:13 · #4

@Oldschoolpro , I respect you for speaking openly about that topic and I agree to the extent that @Hirtenknogger should draw a sharp destinction between his role as administrator and his role as a player and community member. This task is admittedly difficult to master but I believe it's a great opportunity for his personal development.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 26.11.2019 - 07:04 · #5

osp i like you and i respect your opinion, nevertheless i dont think youre in the position to confront other people, who are insulting others, cause in some situations youre encountering other the same as him. in the end knogger is still an admin and with that posititon he should hold back his personal opinion towards other to himself, as he is a representative of the admin team

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 26.11.2019 - 14:20 · #6

Can we please honor Aiolos finess to criticize (respectfully) without openly speaking about it. It, in contrary to most of the rhetorical fireworks, is a pleasure to read well thought comments.
However, I disagree with the underlying assumption that a non-admin should behave any different. Furthermore, I strongly believe that an admins behaviour shapes the behaviour of our fellow members. I'd endorse this community to be polite and respectful to each other yet understand jokes and teasing. An admin has the ability to lead us trustfully to such or, as witnessed by some, different.

With great power comes great responsibility. – Uncle Ben

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 26.11.2019 - 17:55 · #7

Diese Doppelmoral von oldschoolpro ist immer noch das Highlight hier im Forum hehe

Das ist so als würde sich der schnorrer vorm Supermarkt über die vielen Bettler aufregen

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 26.11.2019 - 18:10 · #8

This problem has already been adressed before. It was a different admin and a different time.

The problem with this community is, that the admins consider themselves above any criticism to their person, which was stated in different topics. In Addition some users support this authoritarian system, because they fit in well.
To live a life full of pleasure, you have to fit in. I learned it, senna learned it, Xebra did not and Suma is great at licking ***. This topic wont change anything. Leave the community or go on beneath the surface as so many of us do. And to be honest... a lot of people left, not only because of the admins but of the community and the system itself.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 27.11.2019 - 22:22 · #9

=== DEUTSCH UNTEN ===

The aLobby is a free program that allows you to continue playing an ancient game - along with modern features that more than 20 years ago were not even exists. The administrators and moderators of the Settlers 3 Community sacrifice their free time to make this possible for you - not only in terms of providing the necessary technology, but also through constant security checks, maintenance and further development.

For example, I spent more than 3 months programming the league system on my own. Time that I could have spent differently and that some of you enjoy, as you can see from the data. All the more saddened I'm now due to the discussions here, which from my point of view partly exceed the limits for me as well as the other responsible persons in the Settlers 3 Community and which make me doubt whether I should continue to go along with it.

We, the Settlers 3 Community Administrators and Moderators, cannot accept the accusations of Oldschoolpro as well as several other participants in the discussions of the last days in this form. On the contrary: we vehemently deny that insults are tolerated in this community. We also distance ourselves from any forms of violence, racism and exclusion.

The fact that Hirtenknogger often clashed with Oldschoolpro before his time as a moderator is well known, but in no way represents a one-sided relationship. With his task and responsibility as a moderator, he has and will always be committed to the observance of community rules and netiquette. If we are informed of a player's violation of these rules by several players, the player must bear the consequences. Exactly this is the task of a moderator. Personal opinions to the persons concerned play no role and the consequences are always objectively discussed and determined in the team.

Also a problem for most players in the aLobby: if you notice something, dislike it or have ideas for improvement, don't keep it for yourself! Say it - but please not only in the aLobby-Chat or on TeamSpeak to other players, but here in the FORUM, in a post that every other player can also read and constructively supplement. Only on this way it is possible for us to further develop the aLobby and everything around it in our spare time.

Due to some statements in the discussions here and because there are probably unknown statements to me about complaints to the league system, I will switch off the league in the coming days until further notice. As long as you keep all this among yourselves, there can be no improvement. And improvements will take place in our spare time - a time we have gladly sacrificed for you so far. We also reserve the right to switch off further functions of the aLobby and the community, if there is still no cooperation in the further development on the part of the players.

Most of you have grown up - do the same!

-------------------------------------

Die aLobby ist ein euch kostenfrei bereitgestellte Programm um ein uraltes Spiel auch weiterhin spielen zu können - zusammen mit modernen Features die es vor mehr als 20 Jahren nicht mal Ansatzweise gab. Die Administratoren und Moderatoren der Siedler 3 Community opfern ihre Freizeit um euch das zu ermöglichen - nicht nur im Sinne der Bereitstellung der nötigen Technik sondern auch durch ständige Absicherung, Wartung und Weiterentwicklung.

Ich z.B. habe zusammengerechnet über 3 Monate Arbeitszeit allein mit der Programmierung der Liga verbracht. Zeit die ich durchaus auch anders hätte verbringen können und die einigen von euch, wie man an den Daten erkennt, auch Freude bereitet. Umso betrübter bin ich nun wg. der Diskussionen hier, die aus meiner Sicht teilweise die Grenzen für mich wie auch die anderen Verantwortlichen in der Siedler 3 Community überschreiten und die mich zweifeln lassen, ob ich das weiter mitmachen sollte.

Wir, die Siedler 3 Community Administratoren und Moderatoren, können die Anschuldigungen von Oldschoolpro wie auch mehrerer anderer Teilnehmer an den Diskussionen der letzten Tage in der Form nicht hinnehmen. Im Gegenteil: das Beleidigungen in dieser Community toleriert werden streiten wir vehement ab. Ebenso distanzieren wir uns auch von allen Formen von Gewalt, Rassismus und Ausgrenzung.

Dass Hirtenknogger vor seiner Zeit als Moderator öfters mit Oldschoolpro aneinander geraten ist, ist bekannt, stellt jedoch auch anders als zuvor dargestellt keinesfalls eine einseitige Beziehung dar. Mit der Aufgabe und Verantwortung als Moderator hat und wird er sich stets für die Einhaltung der Community-Regeln und Netiquette eingesetzt. Wenn uns ein Verstoß eines Spielers gegen diese von mehreren Spielern zugetragen wird, hat dieser die Konsequenzen zu tragen. Genau das ist nun mal die Aufgabe eines Moderators. Persönliche Meinungen zu den betreffenden Personen spielen dabei keine Rolle und die Konsequenzen werden stets objektiv im Team besprochen und festgelegt.

Ebenfalls ein Problem bei den meisten Spielern in der aLobby: wenn euch irgendetwas auffällt, missfällt oder ihr Verbesserungsideen habt, behaltet es nicht für euch! Sprecht es aus - aber bitte nicht nur im aLobby-Chat oder TeamSpeak gegenüber anderen Spielern sondern hier im FORUM, in einem Beitrag den jeder andere Mitspieler auch lesen und konstruktiv ergänzen kann. Nur auf diesem Weg ist es uns möglich die aLobby und alles drumherum in unserer Freizeit weiterzuentwickeln.

Auf Grund einiger Äußerungen in den Diskussionen hier und weil es wohl mir unbekannte Äußerungen über Beschwerden zum Liga-System gibt, werde ich die Liga in den kommenden Tagen bis auf weiteres abschalten. Solange ihr das alles unter euch behaltet, kann es auch zu keiner Verbesserung kommen. Und Verbesserungen finden in unserer Freizeit statt - eine Zeit die wir bisher gerne für euch opferten. Wir behalten uns vor auch weitere Funktionen der aLobby und in der Community abzuschalten, wenn es weiterhin keine Mitarbeit an der Weiterentwicklung seitens den Spielern gibt.

Der größte Teil von euch ist erwachsen - handelt auch so!

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 29.11.2019 - 00:01 · #10

Firstly, thanks for the reply - a reply in any form is already helpful.

Secondly, I'd like to draw your attention to a few statements that are not factually correct in the reply. I'll first start with the ones that are relevant to the topic.

1) "Hirtenknogger clashed with oldschoolpro" is a very diplomatic way of putting this. Hirtenknogger purposely and openly greeted me with fuck you pretty much every single time when I logged to Team speak and joined a channel he was in, including when he was a moderator. Moreover, he openely said that the fact that he was rude on team speak "didn't matter" - if you need a screenshot for that, I am happy to provide. These are facts and not my opionion - I'd like to be crystal clear about that.

2) "On the contrary: we vehemently deny that insults are tolerated in this community. We also distance ourselves from any forms of violence, racism and exclusion" - I'd love to believe that and that would be great, but again, the fact that a person who continiously kept insulting is a moderator (or became a moderator despite having exhibited this behaviour prior to becoming a moderator) proves the opposite - this aggressive behaviour got/is tolerated. Sorry, but it's a fact as well.

3) "With his task and responsibility as a moderator, he has and will always be committed to the observance of community rules and netiquette. If we are informed of a player's violation of these rules by several players, the player must bear the consequences. Exactly this is the task of a moderator. Personal opinions to the persons concerned play no role and the consequences are always objectively discussed and determined in the team." I am afraid that's not true as well. He acqused me of being a quitter (I said everyting about this in the initial post), intentionally broke up a game to create a game called "no quitters" to be able to kick me from the game. I haven't seen him doing this to any other players who quit more often than I do (especially if you take relative comparison of # of quits / # of games played). What is this? Discrimination and selective
excersice of power driven by, highly likely, personal hate, which [the hate] I don't mind by the way. One can hate me, but don't limit my ability to play because of ones distorted understanding of the situation or overwhelming emotions. There are players that I don't like - I don't kick them from the game (unless they go complete nuts). Moreover I would pretty much always open larger games to accommodate them. Those who I really don't like are just on ignore list - but again, welcome to play and not kicked from the games.

Now a few other facts that are not related to my original post and the theme of this forum topic:

4) No one blamed league system in this particular post, so I am unclear why you are feeling frustrated and made a decision to switch off the league system. I know some people are not happy with it (outside of this post), but at the same time we play almost every evening a league game and really value it. Your decision is not exactly clear to me, but it's your decision. I personally would love to have an option to play league games and value a lot your effort to create it.

Finally, I'd like to say thanks for providing us with opportunity to play the game - I personally value this a lot and I think pretty much everyone else does as well. Furthermore, if need be, I am happy to contribute financially to the community as required.

To sum up, after I have provided a few facts, I'd like to share my opinion (i.e. below are my conclusions which you may or may not agree with - your choice):

- It's sad that the above-mentioned behaviour of a moderator didn't trigger at a minimum an apology from the Administrators and Moderators.
- Administrators and Moderators can selectively excercise their power without any clear guidelines. However, I'd like to stress and emphasise that I personally haven't seen any other moderator, except the one mentioned above, being unprofessional, rude, etc. On the contrary, they have always been helpful and nice. Moreover, I clearly remember one moderator private messaging me with a certain request in my early alobby days, rather than trying to blame and shame and give last warnings to me openely in front of others. That's what I call respectful behaviour and sound use of power
- I still enjoy spending time with members of the community and playing with them. But it's unfortunate that some members with more power try to limit my ability to do this.

Thanks,
osp

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 29.11.2019 - 17:30 · #11

Well Zwirni, i dont know what point you want to prove, but overall you've proven criticism to the administration or its moderators ends in repression. Why else should you deactivate the liga system?

I think OSP and the other participants have been quite friendly and stated their concerns. Even if these concerns end to be false accusations they should be handled correctly in the first place.
Its not about the work you bring into this project or your technical know-how, we all know what users stand behind this project and what work it made.We're thankful, true, and so did OSP mention, but nonetheless, beeing good with a gun makes you no good policeman.
Afterall its the complaint, that some users feel like they are handled as second-class citizens, when in a discussion with a moderator. I consider myself as one of these users and in the end your "statement" and the general handling of this post emphasizes the mentioned concerns.

P.S. i've always asked myself why this annoying AFK-Bot only works on users, not on admins.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 29.11.2019 - 23:11 · #12

Quote by New at School

Well Zwirni, i dont know what point you want to prove, but overall you've proven criticism to the administration or its moderators ends in repression. Why else should you deactivate the liga system?

Hast du eine lesen & verstehen schwäche ?
Steht in dem Posting nicht deutlich warum die Liga off ist ?

Uns vergeht hier so langsam aber Sicher die Lust. Auf die einfache bitte "meldet doch wenn es Probleme gibt" wird geschissen. Kann ja ein anderer machen ...

ich bin aktuell so was von angefressen ...

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 29.11.2019 - 23:14 · #13

Wenn es Probleme in der Kommunikation geht, dann möchten wir das "sehen". Es besteht seit geraumer Zeit die Aufforderung unsachgemäße Kommunikation zu melden, und dann auch zu belegen....

Belege habe ich bis jetzt keine gesehen ...

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 30.11.2019 - 16:44 · #14

I would like to point out that you are not a better person OSP and show your big hypocrisim. I have been a regular player in this lobby for about 2 years and from the very beginning you were rude. You have abused and offended many players only becouse they lost your game (Everyone has bad days). Let's be realistic, the fact in last weeks you quitted liga game (I played with Tomek), yesterday you crushed your self before even asking your team about it. This reminds me 2000r when people had 90-5 winratio becouse of simular bug. I would be able to understand if this topin would be posted by Incinirate or someone neutral but not you.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 30.11.2019 - 17:50 · #15

@ Zwirni

1. Allgemein

Ich spreche für mich und, denke ich auch, für sehr viele Siedler Spieler die A-lobby.

Die Arbeit, die die Programmierer leisten für die Bereitstellung der A-lobby wird sehr geschätzt. Dass wir das Spiel nach über 20 Jahren überhaupt noch online spielen können ist keine Selbstverständlichkeit und auch die Nutzung der features, die von Dir und den anderen Programmierern eingebaut wurden .

Ich denke jeder Siedler Spieler der A-lobby verbindet das mit deinem Nick , den Nicks der anderen Programmierer sowie der Admins und Inhaber von siedler3.net und der A-lobby und ist dafür sehr dankbar.

Ich selbst kenne das Spiel seit 1999, und es besteht jetzt - nach über 20 jahren - immer noch eine sehr aktive und größtenteils sehr positive Community.

Dass Du und die anderen Programmierer sowie die Admins ihre Freizeit opfern ist keine Selbstverständlichkeit und wird natürlich wahrgenommen und geschätzt.

Das sieht man auch an der vorhanden Spendenbereitschaft, die zumindest die Server-Kosten pro Jahr abgedeckt sowie dem hohen Einsatz vieler Spieler für die Community.

2. Liga System

Das ganze System, von der Programmierer-Seite und auch von der grafischen Gestaltung ist sehr gut, und die Arbeit wird sehr geschätzt. Das haben wir Spieler immer betont,

Bei der Liga haben wir nur - und das mit konstruktiver Kritik- die Bewertung / Punkteberechnung hinsichtlich Aussagekraft der Liga diskutiert,.

Ich erinnere mich da an einige Postings.

Das Ergebnis war, dass die Liga in der derzeitigen Form keine Aussagekraft hat, hinsichtlich wie stark ein Spieler ist (abgesehen von der 1v1 Rangliste).

Das wäre erst möglich, wenn es einen Team Generator gäbe, der Teams anhand des Rankings automatisch zusammenstellt und Teams nicht manuell durch die Spieler zusammengestellt werden können.

Das war nur die konstruktive Kritik zur Weiterentwicklung dazu. Deine Arbeit hat nie jemand kritisiert.

3. Anschuldigungen einer weniger Spieler (Postings von Oldschoolpro)

Es muss betont werden, dass es hier um einen Einzelfall geht, der wenige Spieler betrifft und nicht aussagekräftig ist für die gesamte Community.

Abgesehen davon wäre Inhaltliche zu diesem Vorfall , der OSP und Hirtenknogger betrifft, am besten zu lösten, wenn dazu ein klärendes persönliches Gespräch - am besten im Teamspeak - stattfindet zwischen den Beteiligten sowie 1-2 neutralen Zuhörern.

4.Beleidigungen

Beleidigungen sollten niemals toleriert werden, insbesondere dann nicht, wenn sie eine gewisse Grenze überschritten haben.

Und zwar weder Beleidigungen von Admins durch Spieler, noch von Spielern durch andere Spieler (in beiden Fällen sind bans / härteres Durchgreifen ein notwendiges und angebrachtes Mittel).

Mir ist auch eine Verrohung der Ausdrucksweisen von wenigen Spielern in letzter Zeit aufgefallen, bei denen Grenzen überschritten wurden.

Ich finde das absolut nicht tolerabel und ich appelliere hier an euch, hier härter durchzugreifen (in Form längerer Bans zur Bedenkzeit und Chance zu Änderung der Verhaltens einzelner Spieler)

5. offene Kommunikation, Verbesserungsvorschläge seitens der Spieler

Andere Spieler und ich versuche immer, wichtige Dinge nicht nur für uns zu behalten, sondern hier im Forum zur Diskussion anzusprechen.

Hinsichtlich der Liga und auch bei anderen wichtigen Themen haben wir das hier im Forum oft konstruktiv gemacht. Viele Spieler setzen sich aktiv für den Erhalt und die Entwicklung der Community ein.

Das ist meine Wahrnehmung zu diesen Themen

schönen Gruß

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 30.11.2019 - 18:56 · #16

I vote for Nausica amministrator!

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 30.11.2019 - 19:08 · #17

All thanks for your responses and contributions - to me this topic is closed and the position of admins is clear to me.

As I initially said, this topic was a question to admins on an issue created by and behaviour by Hirtenknogger which limited my ability to play (all desbribed above) and which he wasn't open to discuss personally in an amicable manner. This topic was NOT an offer to start a community-wide debate as I said in my earlier posts (however, thanks everyone for contributions). Moreover, since some responses are now in German, it is impossible for me to continue the conversation - I don't speak German.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 30.11.2019 - 20:43 · #18

Quote by Oldschoolpro

since some responses are now in German, it is impossible for me to continue the conversation - I don't speak German.

take "http://about.imtranslator.net/about/company/" its a plugin for Browsers to translate.
What about the users in here who don`t speak english ? same problem ...

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 30.11.2019 - 20:47 · #19

Nope, other people are not lazy and can put some text to translator.

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Re: Insults and abuse from alobby administrator

· Gepostet: 01.12.2019 - 02:23 · #20

Ramstein, I am not sure whether the purpose and addressees of my post were fully understood. I was addressing purely admins and moderators, who I believe speak English. Unfortunately, there is no other way to contact you - private messages are restricted (in fact I did send you a pm before posting here).

Again, your position is clear and I have shared all my thoughts as well, so I consider this topic closed. If easier, I am happy to delete it as I don't see a 'close topic' button. If anyone else wants to continue discussing this, they are free to create new topics.

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